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Originally Posted by bahiafalsa

I firmly believe that our government can stop the flow of drugs into this country. Unfortunately, drug money has become essential to the economies of many Latin American countries. I believe that Obama can call Calderon right now to advise him that our C-130's will be operating in Mexican airspace for a few weeks spraying pot plantations with paraquat, or whatever they use these days, and Calderon will have no choice but to agree. But if we do that, Mexico's economy will falter even worse that it already is.

There's always going to be a downside from someones perspective to any potential solutions to resolve a bad situation. The devil is in having the wisdom to find the lesser of the evils across the board. IMO, procrastinating doesn't do anything but allow the original problems to worsen. I don't propose just throwing physical & monetary resources at a problem until something sticks....but then "Fiddling while Rome burned" was not too effective either!

I don't have the magic solution. But I do know that Mexicans survived prior to the heavy drug trafficking & cartel days. Given their druthers, I'd guess that the majority of common folk (those not directly involved in using/buying/selling of drugs) would opt for a return to quieter, safer times. The clincher is that even those not directly involved in using/buying/selling have nonetheless been impacted both directly & indirectly....either positively financially through a greater amount of money flowing through the local economy or negatively through a loss of life, loved ones, way of life, tranquility, trust, respect & even tourism dollars.

Comparing those of us who were coming of age in the 60's when the Viet Nam war, drugs, free love, rock 'n roll were permeating the culture....to the present culture 50 years later is like comparing a blueberry to a watermelon! We were a totally different generation, different ethics, morals, values, goals, upbringing. I'd venture to say that most of us were the last generation to have had Mom at home full-time during our formative years. Remember? The days when parents actually took responsibility for the actions of their kids? The days when it was scandalous when one of our friends parents got divorced! The culture was different, the times were different, social responsibility was different. For all the so-called advances of society, there has been a heavy price to pay.

Mexicans are a resourceful people, they'll survive, they'll rapidly come up with different ways....hopefully safer, more respected, things that will re-instill personal & national pride....to earn a living, support their family & continue to flourish.

bahiafalsa, I know you were simply making a factual observation....not making a statement that things should remain status quo for the sake of the Mexican economy. If drugs could be voted out, like bad politicians (oxymoron?) I believe drugs would be eliminated overnight. But alas, for every bad habit or situation eradicated, several others rear their ugly head to replace it....it's just the nature of the beast....'errrrrr....man!

Skooch over a tad dusty, I'm at least as equally anti-drug as you, I never hung with a "head outside for a toke" crowd, still don't use the F word, but then, I never burned my bra either!

HowOdd, in response to your comment, "the meddlesome idea that people want to run other people's lives"....I don't care what people chose to do to themselves in the privacy of their own homes, it's when they leave their home, get in a car, impose their actions or the results of their actions upon others that it becomes my concern. Meddlesome? I view it as my own personal freedom of choice & looking out for my own personal welfare & space.

Very thoughtful post, Legz.

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

I'd venture to say that most of us were the last generation to have had Mom at home full-time during our formative years. Remember? The days when parents actually took responsibility for the actions of their kids? The days when it was scandalous when one of our friends parents got divorced! The culture was different, the times were different, social responsibility was different. For all the so-called advances of society, there has been a heavy price to pay.

Geez, Legz, either you are a lot older than I am, or you grew up in a very different place than I. I was far from the only one growing up, beginning at age 3 (I'm the youngest child), with divorced parents and a working mother. No "scandal" there, either. Then again, this was L.A.

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

... but then, I never burned my bra either!

Me neither -- they weren't cheap, and some of us really NEEDED them.

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

I don't care what people chose to do to themselves in the privacy of their own homes, it's when they leave their home, get in a car, impose their actions or the results of their actions upon others that it becomes my concern. Meddlesome? I view it as my own personal freedom of choice & looking out for my own personal welfare & space.

I totally agree with this part, especially if we are talking about drugs in addition to pot. And I think the consequences go further than just bad driving and car crashes, in terms of loss of productivity (lack of education and subsequent difficulty in finding a job) and consequential dependence on public funds to cover the costs of living (and the drugs).

Me too Legs...

Very thoughtful post, Legz.

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

I'd venture to say that most of us were the last generation to have had Mom at home full-time during our formative years. Remember? The days when parents actually took responsibility for the actions of their kids? The days when it was scandalous when one of our friends parents got divorced! The culture was different, the times were different, social responsibility was different. For all the so-called advances of society, there has been a heavy price to pay.

Geez, Legz, either you are a lot older than I am, or you grew up in a very different place than I. I was far from the only one growing up, beginning at age 3 (I'm the youngest child), with divorced parents and a working mother. No "scandal" there, either. Then again, this was L.A.

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

Skooch over a tad dusty, I'm at least as equally anti-drug as you, I never hung with a "head outside for a toke" crowd, still don't use the F word, but then, I never burned my bra either!

Me neither -- they weren't cheap, and some of us really NEEDED them.

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

I don't care what people chose to do to themselves in the privacy of their own homes, it's when they leave their home, get in a car, impose their actions or the results of their actions upon others that it becomes my concern. Meddlesome? I view it as my own personal freedom of choice & looking out for my own personal welfare & space.

I totally agree with this part, especially if we are talking about drugs in addition to pot. And I think the consequences go further than just bad driving and car crashes, in terms of loss of productivity (lack of education and subsequent difficulty in finding a job) and consequential dependence on public funds to cover the costs of living (and the drugs).

Originally Posted by wessongroup

Me too Legs...

You too WHAT?? You never burned your bra either?

Picky, picky..

you mean training bras didn't count

Originally Posted by wessongroup

Picky, picky..

See? You need to refer to the post (and the relevant part thereof).

Originally Posted by Msterieus

Very thoughtful post, Legz.

Thanks

Geez, Legz, either you are a lot older than I am, or you grew up in a very different place than I. I was far from the only one growing up, beginning at age 3 (I'm the youngest child), with divorced parents and a working mother. No "scandal" there, either. Then again, this was L.A.

"a lot older"???? Well, I'm slightly younger than dirt! I definitely didn't grow up in the LA area, nor even CA.....some folks actually had the audacity to populate other territories....the Oregon territory being where I was hatched! I'm not from a divorced family, but Mom did go to work shortly before I started high school. In the early 60's, the divorce rate was still fairly low, so to even know someone from a divorced home was pretty rare in my social circle.

Me neither -- they weren't cheap, and some of us really NEEDED them.

I actually stopped just short of mentioning both those points!

I totally agree with this part, especially if we are talking about drugs in addition to pot. And I think the consequences go further than just bad driving and car crashes, in terms of loss of productivity (lack of education and subsequent difficulty in finding a job) and consequential dependence on public funds to cover the costs of living (and the drugs).

It must be a sign of a certain tolerance or level of acceptance of "lesser" drugs vs more extreme....but from my perspective, pot is just as much a drug as any of the more extreme drugs. It never ceases to amaze me when someone firmly avows they don't do drugs....& then they continue on to add...."except for just some pot after work & every week-end"!!

My zero tolerance includes pot.

Then you must not drink alcohol, right? Total abstinence from any form of intoxicants is not the norm among the general population of the world, but it is also widespread. Certain religions teach such abstinence. Examples would include LDS and Islam, to name a couple.

There have been debates ongoing for years about the relative merits and dangers of marijuana use versus alcohol. I have never seen any compelling evidence to support the argument that marijuana is a gateway drug to more dangerous substances. and how does one explain the growing legitimacy of marijuana for medicinal purposes?

And just for the record, I haven't smoked pot in like 30 years.

Richard Nixon was instrumental in demonizing marijuana, basically having it classified in the same category as heroin, in retribution against the anti-war movement, who he perceived as a bunch of pot head hippies. Yet, the not dirty little secret is that Marijuana use was widespread among the troops fighting in Viet Nam. It was something that helped them cope while imperiled in a hostile land, fighting a pointless war of choice, having been conscripted to do so.

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

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It must be a sign of a certain tolerance or level of acceptance of "lesser" drugs vs more extreme....but from my perspective, pot is just as much a drug as any of the more extreme drugs. It never ceases to amaze me when someone firmly avows they don't do drugs....& then they continue on to add...."except for just some pot after work & every week-end"!!

My zero tolerance includes pot.

There is a lot of evidence to support the claim that pot is less harmful, addictive and otherwise dangerous than alcohol.

When I lived in the Sierras It was well known you dont hike alone in the national forest land that borderd my property or any place else up there. For fear you might see something you didnt need to see I personaly dont know but I heard from reliable sources It war Real Good Stuff

The place and time I grew up in Achol was the natural choice of drug in those days In TEXAS possession of a dobie could get you life in the PEN. besides Jack daniels was a lot cheaper.

You kinda made my point, J.P. I was never thrilled by pot. People around me would appear to be having a way better time than I was. But to make it more person- specific, a female friend of mine, contrary to what most folks understood, would become belligerent and combative when she smoked. But, just as with any intoxicant, there are exceptions to the norm. If you look at drinkers, one very widespread complaint is that drinkers become aggressive and abusive. Yet, I know a number of folks that merely get mellow.

But again to the point, buying and drinking a bottle of booze, especially when done at home, should not have the drug warriors kicking in your door. You will not be cuffed and stuffed for guzzling a 5th of Jack in your living room. Other fallout may apply.

Originally Posted by Bajahowodd

Then you must not drink alcohol, right? Total abstinence from any form of intoxicants is not the norm among the general population of the world, but it is also widespread. Certain religions teach such abstinence. Examples would include LDS and Islam, to name a couple.

There have been debates ongoing for years about the relative merits and dangers of marijuana use versus alcohol. I have never seen any compelling evidence to support the argument that marijuana is a gateway drug to more dangerous substances. and how does one explain the growing legitimacy of marijuana for medicinal purposes?

And just for the record, I haven't smoked pot in like 30 years.

Richard Nixon was instrumental in demonizing marijuana, basically having it classified in the same category as heroin, in retribution against the anti-war movement, who he perceived as a bunch of pot head hippies. Yet, the not dirty little secret is that Marijuana use was widespread among the troops fighting in Viet Nam. It was something that helped them cope while imperiled in a hostile land, fighting a pointless war of choice, having been conscripted to do so.

My "My zero tolerance includes pot" statement was totally drug-related, as that's the scope of the thread topic. I categorize drugs by OTC & prescription for use as needed for specific medical need versus illegal drugs for "recreational" purposes. My point was that a large percentage of the population doesn't consider marijuana to be on the same level as other so-called "hard drugs"....I don't differentiate by addictiveness or any other generally-held hair-splitting criteria....if it's illegal, it's illegal....my mind does not contain various shades of gray for illegal drugs.

How you segued into "Then you must not drink alcohol, right?" is a common jump but one that initially, albeit briefly, perplexes me when the topic is illegal drugs, but inevitably someone pulls alcohol into the mix....possibly to muddy the waters with legal & illegal substances? I was not brought up in a religion or family setting that practiced nor preached "total abstinence" so I claim full responsibility for my thoughts & personal decisions as originating within my own unique sense of logic and/or right & wrong for me. You're incorrect in your assumption....because I do drink alcohol, but at the same time, oh so very close to being right since my annual alcohol consumption is typically superseded by other people's daily consumption.

None of the above is meant to be read as a moral statement or judgment call, nor a goody-two-shoes statement, it's simply fact, my reality. I've never followed the crowd, I have my own long-established moral compass that I follow & it's served me well for a whole lotta years.

goody two shoes.. that is what my son calls his mom .. and she calls me the "filthy beast".. can still watch that movie ... and have seen it ... well more times than one should .... but, still is a good one.. Cary Grant, Leslie Caron and Trevor Howard ... a truly good movie.. Father Goose

Yeah, I know off topic... we were talking illegal drugs... and I wander around.. but, as I have said before.. I just type..

As for me.. it's my body, if I want to grow opium poppies and make my own .. I see it as a "right" for me to do what I want on my on "place" ... just as long as I only hurt myself..

If I'm messed up through my actions.. take me out and shoot me.. I did it to myself.. I don't see it as your or anyone else's responsibility to take care of me, if I have lung cancer.. bladder cancer.. can't walk, and talk and all the rest.. it was an individual choice, that I made.. and it is up to me to take care of myself... not yours or anyone else

And as stated.. I was offered "smack" in the 5th grade.. guess I was lucky I did not like needles.. but, then was told I could "snort" it too.. just wasn't part of my thinking.. had been told, if you do it.. "your hooked".. just passed on it until about.. 3 or 4 years ago, and I became addicted to a legal drug.. Fentanyl (China White on the street) Doctors .. it took me almost 8 months to "kick" and that is no joke.. have never felt like I was dying for months at a time before.. a really neat side effect they don't really talk about..

Was for chronic pain, but, I would rather be in constant pain, than being addicted and nodding out.. and dropping my guitar.. that was what made me put it down.. dropped one of my babies.. and hurt it

Have had a number of friends who became addicted to drugs.. many and/or most died .. you can't do that stuff really long term, or should say most can't.. look at Keith Richard's .. think he still shoots.. maybe wrong.. see he still smokes.. so would guess he still shoots.. it does go together with most..

Not to many other examples of 60 plus heroin addicts.. or addicts of most of the other stuff... crank, (lost a number to that one too), coke..(losses there.. but, was more from the money that was associated), but, for pot.. don't know anyone that died from it so far.. got shot.. yeah.. if your in the business.. that is part of the business... LSD and all that never had any pull on me.. figured it this reality which I'm living is the real one.. why go look at something which is not.. already watched the movies and TV, plus the news.. and our Government

But, go figure.. have family members who got strung out.. I did not.. same family.. same lessons.. some do and some don't.. and I don't help them..

They made their choices.. against my and others advice.. for what ever reason.. they are where they are through their decisions.. may sound cold to some .. but that is the only way to deal with it from my standpoint.. we still communicate.. I don't hate them, never have.. but, if they get to close.. they have and will still steal from me or anyone else around.. just the way it is...

A Lady friend of ours, has a bother that is "strung out" on "crack"... his own mother will not let him into the house.. she will make him a sandwich, and pass it through the back door... but will not let him in.. he is 55 years of age.. with a hard luck story that is real, but so his his current condition.. do we have anything that will help him.. NO.. he is "stuck" until he dies.. it's just that simple.. good, bad. could have, should have.. it is what it is.. put a name on it, if you wish

The Government, made it illegal.. the "drug" didn't .. leave it go.. and it will reach a degree of equilibrium .. and it's all about evolution of our species .... on going at all times.. would rather see Government removed from the process.. think we see how smart they are... and the they are: Executive, Legislative and Judicial Branch of the Government..

Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it..

I do sometimes wonder if "absolutists" do sleep better at night than do I.