TalkBaja.com » Baja Mexico Forums » Visas for travel and living in Baja California, Mexico

One advantage of the FM-2 over the FM-3 is that after 5 years with the FM-2, you are done, no more renewals (saves $$$$$).

However, with the new changes to the immigration system, I have heard that they are doing away with many of the sub-classifications of the FM's.....a wait and see game.

Originally Posted by BluChunx

Unless you are considering citizenship, I don't think an FM2 is necessary (but I'm not a lawyer) or even helpful over an FM3. (I don't know how long any of this is valid, since some things are about to change.

If you travel over the border at all, consider getting your tourist visa on the way in, and then apply immediately for the FM3 (or 2) right away. (You can have the paperwork all ready to go.)

Once you get into the interior or south Baja, do you ever get checked for your visa, for example, when pulled over for a traffic violation? I'm in Rosarito where most expats are undocumented. I know a guy with a beautiful house in TJ who has no visa at all. Been in Mexico 30 years. Crosses the border regularly. But that's the border region.

Blu, I think that different individual's unique circumstances vary & there's no one-size-fits-all answer to the FM3 vs FM2 question. IMO, long-range goals also come into play....I live here permanent & full-time (have only been out of the country 2 weeks during the past 7 years), so it makes the most sense for me to move towards immigrado status, permanency & no more annual renewal fees. Many people live part-time in two or more locations & have no plans to ever live SOB full-time....for them, the issues are different & they may not even qualify for FM2 status (under present laws).

Rules & laws, interpretation & enforcement can & do vary from location to location. To me personally, the bottom-line is to adhere to the rules & laws of my adopted country. While being asked to provide proof I'm in the country legally has been infrequent, it has happened. To me it's not the percentage of chances of being asked, it's following the law whether I'm ask to provide proof of not. Yes, people can & do get away with a LOT....but in my book it's not worth the risk & potential penalties, up to & including deportation.

FMM's are a legal requirement beyond the border zone areas & that in & of itself overrides weighing any percentage of chances of being asked or caught without legal authorization. But that's my personal choice, my moral compass & I know moral compass readings are as unique & varied as people & situations are & I know not everyone lives by my choices.

That said, it's been eerily quiet from CDN_JOHNNY....I hope he's neither in custody nor driving back to the border for a "do-over" re-entry!

Update

FMM in hand for 180 days as of friday>>>>

Choice pay a fine of about $1,200 peso's plus about $300 peso's for visa here in La Paz or save $1,200 Peso's and go to Border for paper work.

To all THANK YOU for the support that allowed me to enter that front door and face the Music.

Legg's, went to Cabos to burn off some steam as we are still living out of boxes and suit cases because of our construction issues (more info in reply to PM)

LESSON #1:
Listen the first time Legg's gives advice and points out
"DO NOT FORGET TO STOP AT BORDER AND GET YOUR FMM"

Originally Posted by CDN_JOHNNY

Update
LESSON #1:
Listen the first time Legg's gives advice and points out
"DO NOT FORGET TO STOP AT BORDER AND GET YOUR FMM"

I think they actually gave you a break on the fine....a friend who flew out of TJ & landed here without FMM was nailed $1,500 pesos upon his arrival!! Sometimes fessing up & facing the music isn't as bad as we dread it's going to be!

Glad that you're legal now & that it was a fairly inexpensive lesson learned.

Leg's Rule #2 (which I should have offered sooner): Leave your US/Canadian standards & expectations at the border! Admittedly, this is one of the toughest rules for most us to adhere to....I'm still battling it & I've been here 12 years!

Hope to meet you guys soon.

Glad you got it sorted out!!

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

Leg's Rule #2 (which I should have offered sooner): Leave your US/Canadian standards & expectations at the border! Admittedly, this is one of the toughest rules for most us to adhere to....I'm still battling it & I've been here 12 years!

Hope to meet you guys soon.

Leg's
I have worked in various cities through out Mexico since 1989 and I keep saying to myself. "They will learn, it will get better", But>>>>

I just want to start unpacking.

Second day of sitting in House "WAITING" for somebody to "SHOW UP" and finish what they started last week.

OK, that is off my chest "Sort of">>>>>

Nowhere is there any 'sign' or an immigration stop to tell the casual Baja travelerer that if they go south of San Felipe or south of Maneadero (or perhaps south of the state of Baja California "Norte") they are 'required to have an FMM/ Tourist Card.

The only place there 'sometimes' is an immigration check is on Hwy. 1 at the Baja Sur state border. But, there are other roads that cross the line, and no signs.

Not everyone is on the Baja Internet sites and as we have seen above... even if they are, they may not read the information posted.

So, what is an otherwise honest tourist who is spending money in Mexico to do..?. Calling him an illegal is harsh, even if correct. I mean he is not there to steal jobs or get free health care or have an anchor baby.

While I always get an FM-T (now FMM) before going to Baja Sur, and sometimes have one for trips that stay in Baja Norte... the whole thing is run fishy and just where does the twenty three dollars (per person) go that we pay for the card? It sure doesn't help anyone who is in the tourist business in Baja... It was free before 2000. If anything this 'tourist tax' keeps people from going... specially large families... and that hurts the people of Baja!

Now, for the people who buy property in Mexico or leave personal property in Mexico, when they return to the U.S., that is a big red flag... almost like not knowing Baja is part of another country!

While nothing stops you from buying or leasing a lot or vaction home in Mexico with a tourist card... you have NO legal rights to do anything other than tourist activity with a Tourist Card.

Tourist go to Mexico for a vacation and return home with all of their property. When you keep property in Mexico and go back to that same property over and over, you are a Part Time Resident, and not a tourist... That requires an FM-3 or higher level of visa. There have been sweeps reported in Baja Sur by immigration who check the visas of gringos living in Mexico... longer than the 180 day limit of a Tourist Card.

Originally Posted by David K

There have been sweeps reported in Baja Sur by immigration who check the visas of gringos living in Mexico... longer than the 180 day limit of a Tourist Card.

Do you have any details about this? I've heard rumors that the government is cracking down on foreigners who rent their homes without paying income tax or having "lucrativa" status, but I've not heard of INM actively checking for people who overstay their 180 days (except at airports).

Originally Posted by David K

While nothing stops you from buying or leasing a lot or vaction home in Mexico with a tourist card... you have NO legal rights to do anything other than tourist activity with a Tourist Card.

Yes people do have a legal right to conduct business legally, including property/casa purchase....check the current information on the next FMM you get; there's a statement about what activities you can do legally with a valid FMM.

Originally Posted by David K

Tourist go to Mexico for a vacation and return home with all of their property. When you keep property in Mexico and go back to that same property over and over, you are a Part Time Resident, and not a tourist... That requires an FM-3 or higher level of visa.

Again, property ownership does NOT REQUIRE an FM3/FM2.....having an FM3/FM2 levels the playing field somewhat should legal recourse become necessary.

Originally Posted by David K

There have been sweeps reported in Baja Sur by immigration who check the visas of gringos living in Mexico... longer than the 180 day limit of a Tourist Card.

Only Sur? Please quote source data.

Local news has been reporting for several years what Kate mentioned regarding Hacienda actively looking for homeowners in Mexico who rent their places out, do not have a "lucrativa" FM2/FM3 & who don't feel the need to report rental income & pay the 15% or 16% tax on rental property proceeds to Hacienda.

I've heard of INM following up if they receive a "denunica" against a specific individual, but I haven't heard through either the grapevine nor the local news that INM is doing "sweeps" for violators. They don't have the manpower.

CDN_JOHNNY now has the proper authorization to be in the country & he has 180-days to apply for FM3/FM2, whichever makes the most sense for their individual circumstances.

Originally Posted by kate

Do you have any details about this? I've heard rumors that the government is cracking down on foreigners who rent their homes without paying income tax or having "lucrativa" status, but I've not heard of INM actively checking for people who overstay their 180 days (except at airports).

There was a good bit of "noise" about this several years ago, relatively isolated to Cabo, and as a result of unhappy business owners who, paying the taxes, believed they were disadvantaged relative to private homeowners illegally renting. I remember reading and hearing about the "sweeping" at the time.

Originally Posted by dusty

There was a good bit of "noise" about this several years ago, relatively isolated to Cabo, and as a result of unhappy business owners who, paying the taxes, believed they were disadvantaged relative to private homeowners illegally renting. I remember reading and hearing about the "sweeping" at the time.

So the short answer would appear to be yes - that at any point in time somebody could lodge a complaint and Hacienda could show up at your door...

Seems so ... but that still doesn't address the original question about INM targeting foreigners who overstay their 180 days.

True....but Hacienda is not INM....their function is collecting tax revenues; I don't believe that there is a strong line of inter-agency communication between Hacienda & INM. The original statement was that INM did sweeps & nobody I know....Mexican or gringo....has ever heard of INM doing a sweep.

STOP eating that popcorn!!!! There's gonna be hell to pay getting all those hulls out of your wires!

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

STOP eating that popcorn!!!! There's gonna be hell to pay getting all those hulls out of your wires!

It was just wishful thinking on my part...

SOME OF THE THINGS POSTED ABOUT THE SUBJECT (did a search because it was a while ago I read about the sweeps, FM-3 required, etc.):


You have to consider what is written law, and weigh that against the multitude of interpretations among the various immigrations district offices and the various Mexican Consulates in The United States. (Good luck with that!)

The best way is to do everything through your local immigration district office in Baja. They do operate differently from one another. Besides, they want absolute control. Our immigration office in Santa Rosalia tells us that we no longer have to wait to apply for an FM2 after holding an FM3 for five years. We can jump over the five year FM3 holding period (if you want to).

Regarding the ability to buy property with an FMT, I know people who have done it. There are many who are willing to take your money, and some have gotten Fideicomisos while only holding an FMT. Where you get into legal trouble is if there is some dispute regarding your land. You have NO rights and you will lose your property. That is validated by the fact that your are actually holding the property illegally. It just hasn't been enforced until a dispute arises. The same goes for insurance policies. If you have to collect on a claim, you can't do it without at least an FM3.

Do your homework diligently if you are buying property. Do your immigration business only with your local immigration district office. Think about this: They know everything about you. They know what you look like and where you live. They make regular sweeps throughout their region. You are far better off getting to know them and working with them. Respect their culture and "the way things are done". If your principles run counter to theirs, they are of no value in Mexico. You are a foreigner.


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O.K., this is discussed over.. and over... and over again.
(but don't you worry, there are always some guys here who know everything better than the INM. Those i.e. who purchased land holding an FMT)
FM-T : You have no rights at all other than entering the country. You have to leave within 180 days. You are not allowed to sign contracts whats-o-ever !!!
Any contract you sign without an FM-3/2 is illegal and you might loose whatever you purchased on an FMT. Cars. Homes. Bankaccounts. everything. We had this discussion before.
FM-3 : you have very limited rights i.e. you can stay for one year. You can open a bankaccount. Sign legal and other contracts. etc. etc. Renewal before 12 month required.
FM-2 : after holding an FM-3 for 5 years you can apply ( ! - no guarante that you get it ) for an FM-2. If you 'own' land on a Fido (Banktrust) you can shorten that time by 2 years. Owning land free and clear on any FM is out of discussion.

Again, FMT does not allow you anything other than entering the country for 180 days only. Even as there are Nomads her posting that they bought this or that house w/o an FM-3. It is illegal.

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what good are title documents that evidence your title to Mexican real estate if you cannot assert or defend your rights because you do not have the requisite legal standing that only an FM3 or FM2 affords? That, I believe, is the issue.

So, it may not be actually "illegal" to buy baja real estate as a foreigner, but, if you can't defend or assert your title because you have the wrong or no visa, that renders your title vulnerable. So long as no Mexican challenges you, your fine. I wouldn't pay a nickel for that kind of title.


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Think this through real slowly. As a tourist, on a FMT, when you leave the country your visa is no longer valid. As an individual without a valid visa you are not allowed to leave anything behind in the country. You need to remove whatever you brought as a tourist.

Buying a house and having a second home in mexico where you leave some of your belongings is not a tourist activity.

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The property where we are building our house is in El Dorado Ranch in San Felipe. This is a quote off of their website on owning property (or renting/leasing) in Mexico.

"For those of you who either lease lots, rent houses, or have purchased property through a Fideicomiso Irrevocable, you must have an FM-3 Visa to be legal in Mexico. Once you have signed any sort of contract, you are no longer a tourist. I would like to say at the outset, that if you do not have an FM-3 Visa and you find yourself in a property dispute or other entanglement which puts you in the arms of jurisprudence, you literally have no rights as an "illegal alien". This means your property, bank accounts, vehicles and personal belongings, are in jeopardy. The very minimum you need for owning or leasing property is the FM-3 Visa which is renewable every year for 5 years."
This is why we got our FM3s before signing the contract with our builder.

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This link is from the Consular Section of the Embassy of Mexico in Washington D. C. and would appear to cut to the end of the chase on many issues discussed:

http://portal.sre.gob.mx/consulados/...ndow.php?id=70

"Purchase of real estate
Purchase of real estate in Mexico by non-mexicans

Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution bars foreigners from buying real estate in what is called the “restricted zone” (sixty one miles from the international border and thirty one miles from the seacoast). Outside this area, aliens can purchase real estate property but must agree before the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat to be treated, for all intents and purposes, as Mexican nationals and abstain from invoking the protection of their country of origin with respect to that property. If the covenant is breached, all rights to such property will revert to Mexico .

For the purchase of land in Mexico , the following must be met:

- An application must be filed with the Mexican Foreign Affairs Secretariat (Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores, Dirección General de Asuntos Jurídicos, Tlatelolco, D. F.) or any of its offices in the Mexican territory. The appropriate personnel will provide the official form {S1} and will help the applicant answer any questions on technical matters.

- Prove the applicant's immigration status (FM3 o FM2 ).

- File the application and attach to it a description of surface, measurements, landmarks and adjacencies of the land.

- Pay the corresponding duties.

I f the buyer is a company, it must prove it is legally incorporated

Ah.....popcorn and cerveza time..........this is like watching a tennis match..........

Thanks, David. I remember that 2009 thread now:
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=42418
The "sweeps" statement was general, not about overstaying 180 days or Baja California Sur specifically. I think people were basing their comments on their own experiences and those of their friends, which is understandable since there's so much variation in practice in different INM offices. In any case, laws and regulations have changed since then and are in the process of changing again, so I guess all we can do is try to keep up and ask lots of questions at INM.

I personally would welcome sweeps by Mexican Immigration removing violators. We expect the same in our country, obey the laws of the country you are in.

Get legal, stay legal........no problems.

Originally Posted by Teniente

Get legal, stay legal........no problems.

I strongly second that emotion!!
Seems that some folks spend a lot more time and energy trying to get around the laws than they would by simply complying with them. I'm still astounded at the number of people who keep trying to avoid getting a US passport.

Third!!! What ^ they ^ said...bofum!