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I wasn't really asking about driving, but it appears as if that is a subject people here feel strongly about.

Originally Posted by bwall

I wasn't really asking about driving, but it appears as if that is a subject people here feel strongly about.

Actually, for many expats down here, that's the only interaction they have.
Can you give us a clue as to which area of life you were inquiring about?

=bwall;36170
I had also noticed that rich(er) Mexicans seem to be a bit more impatient .

Some are. Yes. Rude and demeaning as well.
There is clear cut class distinction built into the fabric of society in Mexico and the well to do readily subscribe to it. I used to date a lady who refered to almost everybody as "Low People."
I hated that because she was a card carrying pig herself.
The Chilangos in Mexico City will illustrate the point on a large scale. The closer the heritage to Spain, the higher on the self evaluation scale the person sits.

Originally Posted by bwall

...rich(er) Mexicans seem to be a bit more impatient and I never could quite figure all that out. It seems as your theory would validate that point as well as they wouldn't suffer consequenses by lack of obsequiessence. I cannot spell.

I think it's obsequiousness.

Yes, I cheated Googled.

Originally Posted by kate

Mexicans generally, at least in La Paz, seem to have more patience than people from the US in bureaucratic situations and others that involve waiting one's turn (supermarket checkouts, doctors' offices, ATMs)...

Hear hear.

What I find annoying in the states are the falsely-fawning clerks imploring you to walk over to a cashier with "no waiting."

1) 30 seconds or a minute aren't gonna kill me

2) Invariably, another patron beats me to it. Now where am I in the foolishness heirarchy?

Still above the clerk who would obviously know this if he/she were paying attention to actual customer satisfaction, and not just playing the part.

Originally Posted by bwall

I wasn't really asking about driving, but it appears as if that is a subject people here feel strongly about.

Actually I feel, as a general rule, some Mexicans are impatient while working with their hands. I have noticed some, not all, seem to rush through things "to get it done and over with" without taking their time to do it the way I personally would. I mean as an example: not scratch it or ding it up, not tie it down so that you have to stop and tie it down again in a couple of kilometers down the road, not paint a wall and splash paint all over the place, etc. Alan

Originally Posted by MexicaliAlan

Actually I feel, as a general, rule some Mexicans are impatient while working with their hands. I have noticed some, not all, seem to rush through things "to get it done and over with" without taking their time to do it the way I personally would. I mean as an example: not sratch it or ding it up, not tie it down so that you have to stop and tie it down again in a couple of kilometers down the road, not paint a wall and splash paint all over the place, etc. Alan

They....some..... do seem to leave the details in the hands of God moreso than we might.

Others........some....just don't see those details as worthy of attention and worry.

Who's to say??

Originally Posted by DENNIS

Actually, for many expats down here, that's the only interaction they have.
Can you give us a clue as to which area of life you were inquiring about?

Fair enough. On occasion I have needed professional services, lawyer, accountant, notary, banks, etc. Nothing major, of course. And the response time has been way too long, unacceptably long in the USA or any other developed economy. I found myself waiting this week for some unknown reason and going crazy because of it. I thought I'd post the question on the forum.

As a tourist, Mexico is a great destination--nice hotels, beautiful beaches, great weather, awesome food, most everything works and all that at a better price than at home. But, when you scratch the surface you see extraordinary differences that are sometimes mind-boggling. I was hoping for some insight from people who had more intensive contact with Mexicans. . . . .All that being said, from what I hear Mexico is the best organized, fastest place in all of Latin America.

Originally Posted by MexicaliAlan

Actually I feel, as a general rule, some Mexicans are impatient while working with their hands. I have noticed some, not all, seem to rush through things "to get it done and over with" without taking their time to do it the way I personally would. I mean as an example: not scratch it or ding it up, not tie it down so that you have to stop and tie it down again in a couple of kilometers down the road, not paint a wall and splash paint all over the place, etc. Alan

Why is this?

I was impatient as a teenager and what you are describing is familiar to me. But, over time I've changed. ... .

Originally Posted by DENNIS

Some are. Yes. Rude and demeaning as well.
There is clear cut class distinction built into the fabric of society in Mexico and the well to do readily subscribe to it. I used to date a lady who refered to almost everybody as "Low People."
I hated that because she was a card carrying pig herself.
The Chilangos in Mexico City will illustrate the point on a large scale. The closer the heritage to Spain, the higher on the self evaluation scale the person sits.

So it's not just my perception. . . . .

Question: If the economy in Mexico begins to generate jobs on a large scale and more bodies are needed to work will this attitude change? Much in the same way that the industrial revolution ended the class system in Europe?

I have found that on various items here......painting, landscaping, electrical or plumbing the attitude is "if it looks good, it is good".......it doesn't have to work or even fit, it just looks good.

Originally Posted by bwall

. I found myself waiting this week for some unknown reason and going crazy because of it.

Sounds as though your expectations are inflexible and unrealistic, considering your chosen location [Mexico, I assume]....not to mention frustrating and unhealthy. The necessary adjustments are yours to make.

But, when you scratch the surface you see extraordinary differences that are sometimes mind-boggling.

You're just scratching your own surface.

Originally Posted by bwall

Question: If the economy in Mexico begins to generate jobs on a large scale and more bodies are needed to work will this attitude change? Much in the same way that the industrial revolution ended the class system in Europe?

It will certainly change in the self evaluation of the working class, but, if at all, much more slowly in the ruling class. The last worldly thing they want to do is turn over their status, real and imagined, to a democratic process.
Case in point:
There is a change in progress [] to modernize the court system in Mexico. Allow defendants to make a plea in front of a judge, for instance....among other forms of transparency. It's hoped the revamped justice system will use the US system, and others, as a model.
Sounds fair and good, doesn't it.
It would be, if it ever happened, but in order for this to transpire, those with money and connections, the heart and soul of Justice in Mexico, will have to relinquish there edge on legal decisions in the courts.
One can only imagine the level of monied resistance this change will encounter.
All I can say is, "Never in our lifetime."

Originally Posted by DENNIS

Actually, for many expats down here, that's the only interaction they have.
Can you give us a clue as to which area of life you were inquiring about?

I feel that the risk taking of drivers down here has all drivers aware that close calls can happen at any moment whereas NOB drivers are not really risk takers so drivers pay much less attention when driving. I see cars, trucks and busses coming within an inch of other vehicle´s side mirrors everytime I leave the house.

NOB I cannot remember ever seeing this.

Maybe drivers here have accidents but not as many as they should IMO.

There seems to be a status quo in all places here that allows these rare things [rare in other places] to happen often to us, from NOB. where they do not happen and we have to get used to seeing it often. Alan

Originally Posted by MexicaliAlan

Maybe drivers here have accidents but not as many as they should IMO.

They have plenty of them. What they don't have a lot of is insurance. That's why "hit 'n run" is epidemic.

The woman parks her cart dead in the center of the aisle while she goes right or left to the shelf and begins reading labels.
Of course, you can't get by, so you're supposed to stop at her cart and say"Con permiso"....at which time she looks at you with a smile as though you just popped up out of the floor.
She then moves her cart to the side........the two of you exchanging smiles while mumbling a few words, and you carry on.

Sorry, but this is not just a Mexico thing. It happens NOB all the time. Not just in grocery stores, but everywhere. It's like people just don't recognize that you exist until you push your presence on them. On the otherhand, I've been guilty of it as well once in a while when I was off in my own little world, so I can't get too irritated.

I especially like when there is an entire clear aisle except for one solitary display that pokes out into the aisle...and they park their carts directly opposite to create a very effective road block.

Originally Posted by DENNIS

It will certainly change in the self evaluation of the working class, but, if at all, much more slowly in the ruling class. The last worldly thing they want to do is turn over their status, real and imagined, to a democratic process.
Case in point:
There is a change in progress [] to modernize the court system in Mexico. Allow defendants to make a plea in front of a judge, for instance....among other forms of transparency. It's hoped the revamped justice system will use the US system, and others, as a model.
Sounds fair and good, doesn't it.
It would be, if it ever happened, but in order for this to transpire, those with money and connections, the heart and soul of Justice in Mexico, will have to relinquish there edge on legal decisions in the courts.
One can only imagine the level of monied resistance this change will encounter.
All I can say is, "Never in our lifetime."

Dennis; thanks for the thoughtful insight. I try not to expect things on the same time table as in the USA but sometimes I do get frustrated. I was trying to think of the reasons why it was sooo different. Someone suggested that the patience of the Mexican people was perhaps a cause (or result?). It seemed logical. . . . .

Change is always difficult, even if it is for the best later on. I think that if Pena Nieto can break the monopolies (media, telecommunications, beer, cement, among others) then the legal monopoly shouldn't be too far behind.

Originally Posted by bwall

I think that if Pena Nieto can break the monopolies (media, telecommunications, beer, cement, among others) then the legal monopoly shouldn't be too far behind.

I doubt he can pull that off. Not sure he wants to anyway. He would prefer strong ownership over big unions, I would think. The owners are easier to deal with.
The problem is, how much stronger can the owners get?
The cartels are a good lesson. They were allowed to operate unchecked as long as they left their money in Mexico until one day, someone looked around and the cancer had grown to unmanageable proportions. They were bigger and stronger and richer than the government. Meaner too.

Originally Posted by DENNIS

I doubt he can pull that off. Not sure he wants to anyway. He would prefer strong ownership over big unions, I would think. The owners are easier to deal with.
The problem is, how much stronger can the owners get?
The cartels are a good lesson. They were allowed to operate unchecked as long as they left their money in Mexico until one day, someone looked around and the cancer had grown to unmanageable proportions. They were bigger and stronger and richer than the government. Meaner too.

And since the Cartels and Government apparently already work well together, why not formalized it? Make them partners. They will operate without violence selling commodities to willing buyers. They pay a 50% tax and the rest of the dollars are theirs to use without having to launder them. What more harm could come to Mexico? It's not ideal, but what other options are left? jmho

Originally Posted by Woooosh

And since the Cartels and Government apparently already work well together, why not formalized it? Make them partners. They will operate without violence selling commodities to willing buyers. They pay a 50% tax and the rest of the dollars are theirs to use without having to launder them. What more harm could come to Mexico? It's not ideal, but what other options are left? jmho

I've heard many people suggest that the new gov't (PRI) would strike a deal with the cartels and bring about peace. Peace (at any cost?) is desirable, but I believe it will be awhile before it arrives. Here's why: I think that since the gov't isn't (wasn't) the one pulling the triggers and causing the deaths it will be hard for them to stop the killing. Stopping the killing means the killers have to no longer pull the trigger on guns. And the killers listen to their bosses, not politicians. Do the bosses listen to politicians? Over the past 7 years that wasn't a good business strategy so why should they start 'trusting' someone they don't 'own'? And how can all the cartels 'own' the same politician?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that putting the genie back in the bottle will be very hard. Once a turf war erupts it's hard to settle as it morphs into revenge: 'I want to kill you b/c you killed X,Y & Z' and not 'let's look at this from a business prospective.'

Just my .02 worth.

Originally Posted by bwall

And how can all the cartels 'own' the same politician?

.

That's pretty much the goal of the current street wars between cartels....to narrow it down to one.

Looks like Sinaloa has been chosen by default.
Remember....Chapo made the Forbes list....for which, I feel, Forbes should be prosecuted.