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Originally Posted by Woooosh

Fame is good, books sales even better. I doubt David K has broken even on the gas it takes to research his stories but this is what he loves to do and is committed to.

For sure... nobody makes much money writing Baja books, with maybe a couple of exceptions! My Internet reports pay even less than the new mission book does!! LOL

Remember, I am just a 1/3 co-author, so take the $5 to $10 profit from a sold book and split it between us, there is not much to put in the gas tank! LOL

We did it for love of accuracy and telling the more complete story of the California missions: Just too much is published that doesn't have the facts (that are not that hard to find)! The idea that San Diego was the FIRST California mission, per so many books and what is taught in schools was another case we wanted to make.

The state of California didn't even exist when the missions were founded... that line was drawn after the missions were abandoned (Santo Tomas actually had a priest serving the few Indians there until 1849, a year after the war ended and Mexico officially 'sold' us Upper California).

Oops, there I go again... I am passionate about the past!

Originally Posted by David K

For sure... nobody makes much money writing Baja books, with maybe a couple of exceptions! My Internet reports pay even less than the new mission book does!! LOL

Remember, I am just a 1/3 co-author, so take the $5 to $10 profit from a sold book and split it between us, there is not much to put in the gas tank! LOL

We did it for love of accuracy and telling the more complete story of the California missions: Just too much is published that doesn't have the facts (that are not that hard to find)! The idea that San Diego was the FIRST California mission, per so many books and what is taught in schools was another case we wanted to make.

The state of California didn't even exist when the missions were founded... that line was drawn after the missions were abandoned (Santo Tomas actually had a priest serving the few Indians there until 1849, a year after the war ended and Mexico officially 'sold' us Upper California).

Oops, there I go again... I am passionate about the past!

... and that is just so cool that you are. If you didn't document the history of Baja it would never get done. Are you finding any Mexican students interested in this to? A great hobby if nothing else.

Originally Posted by Woooosh

... and that is just so cool that you are. If you didn't document the history of Baja it would never get done. Are you finding any Mexican students interested in this to? A great hobby if nothing else.

There are many history writers... both history fans and published historians who have been to the archives in Spain, Mexico and California.

We are talking with a Mexican former college student now on how to introduce the Spanish edition of our book into schools and more businesses in Baja California!

As for what's in this small book...

The information is out there in books and on the Internet, the problem is a lot of incorrect information is being published as well. None of us were alive when any of this mission history was happening, so one needs to read and compare, use some common sense and logic to discover the facts as best as possible.

I have a nice size library of Baja books and I have friends with some books I don't have, but I could borrow. I have found that reading actual translations of the padre's writings has been most rewarding. Some books have done great research. Some others just print whatever, without verifying the data. Sadly, many are published in Mexico.

My passion for Baja history (actually Old California history) began as a kid and grew while in high school when I began to drive myself to Baja and going to missions was one of my destinations.

To get the correct or best information on the missions, one needs several books. This is hardly convenient for the traveler who seeks just the basic details of who, what, where, when, why, and how... Because the missions in both Baja and Alta California were founded together as one project, and not just in one area of California, there was no logic in leaving half of them out for historic data.

Our book places all 48 California missions in the actual order they were founded, with the full name, founding Order, founding priest, location(s) as many were moved one or more times, and a bit of history that goes with that mission.

Each mission is given 'equal time' in our book regardless if it is a beautiful stone church with gold leaf altars or a pile of melted adobe, or even totally gone and replaced by a newer building. They were all missions, commissioned by the King of Spain and many were financed by wealthy Europeans.

Here is a list from our book, of the missions with the year of their founding and the ones now in Baja are in bold...The Jesuits were building missions for the first 72 years, then were replaced by the Franciscans who were charged with extending north of the peninsula. The Franciscans shared mission operation and new mission building duty with the Dominicans 5 years later. The Dominicans were given administration over the peninsula and the Franciscans over 'New' or 'Upper' California.

I recently posted this on Baja Nomad, so I hope some new viewers will get something out of it here...

In order to easily see the relationship between the founding of the 21 Franciscan missions in Alta California and the founding of the 27 Jesuit, Franciscan, and Dominican missions founded in Baja California, and how they occurred during the same period... the missions on the peninsula are in bold text:

1 -1697 Nuestra Señora de Loreto Conchó
2 -1699 San Francisco Javier Biaundó
3 -1705 San Juan Bautista de Malibat (Ligüí)
4 -1705 Santa Rosalía de Mulegé
5 -1708 San José de Comondú
6 -1720 La Purísima Concepción de Cadegomó
7 -1720 Nuestra Señora del Pilar de la Paz Airapí
8 -1720 Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe de Huasinapí
9 -1721 Nuestra Señora de los Dolores Apaté
10-1724 Santiago el Apóstol Aiñiní
11-1728 San Ignacio de Kadakaamán
12-1730 San Jose del Cabo Añuítí
13-1733 Santa Rosa de las Palmas (Todos Santos)
14-1737 San Luis Gonzaga Chiryaqui
15-1752 Santa Gertrudis
16-1762 San Francisco de Borja Adac
17-1766 Santa María de los Ángeles
18-1769 San Fernando de Velicatá
19-1769 San Diego de Alcalá
20-1770 San Carlos Borromeo de Carmelo
21-1771 San Antonio de Padua
22-1771 San Gabriel Arcángel
23-1772 San Luis Obispo de Tolosa
24-1774 Nuestra Señora del Rosario de Viñadaco
25-1775 Santo Domingo
26-1776 San Francisco de Asís (Dolores)
27-1776 San Juan Capistrano
28-1777 Santa Clara de Asís
29-1780 San Vicente Ferrer
30-1782 San Buenaventura
31-1786 Santa Bárbara
32-1787 San Miguel Arcángel (Dominican)
33-1787 La Purísima Concepción
34-1791 Santo Tomás de Aquino
35-1791 Santa Cruz
36-1791 Nuestra Señora de la Soladad
37-1794 San Pedro Mártir de Verona
38-1797 San José
39-1797 San Juan Bautista
40-1797 San Miguel Arcángel (Franciscan)
41-1797 San Fernando Rey de España
42-1797 Santa Catalina Virgen y Mártir
43-1798 San Luis Rey de Francía
44-1804 Sants Inés Virgen y Mártir
45-1817 El Descanso (San Miguel la Nueva)
46-1817 San Rafael Arcángel
47-1823 San Francisco Solano (Sonoma)
48-1834 Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe

1769 may have been the first instance when the territory north of the peninsula was referred to as 'Nueva' and later as 'Alta' California.

1772 was when the Dominicans were given authority of the Antigua (Old) California (peninsula) missions and the Franciscans over Nueva California missions.

1804 was the year that Alta and Baja California became two separate political districts. It was just 'California' before then, with 44 'California' missions already established.

Would you like your own copy of our book?

The link to the book's web page is at the bottom of my posts here on Talk Baja... we also have a Facebook page with MANY more photos of the missions: http://facebook.com/oldmissions

Nice job on that post. It would be great to get your book in the Baja schools. Mexicans are proud of their families and culture and although The Missions aren't as flashy as the Aztec's pyramids, they tell a much more peaceful story.

Originally Posted by Woooosh

The Missions aren't as flashy as the Aztec's pyramids, they tell a much more peaceful story.

There are many who associate the Missions with slavery of the local inhabitants.

Originally Posted by DENNIS

There are many who associate the Missions with slavery of the local inhabitants.

and that is too bad... because it then has them ignoring history. Because you don't like what happened doesn't mean you shouldn't know what happened, right?

To the Europeans, they converted near animal-like savages who wandered the desert, naked, sleeping in the open, eating lizards and bugs into farmers and craftsmen and saved their souls.

By turning the Indians into European style villagers, California would be an extension of Spain, block England or Russia from moving any closer south, and the missions would have served their purpose. A port for the Spanish Galleon was also on the list for the missions to achieve.

What nobody wanted to happen, was the death of thousands of Indians from diseases brought from Europe and that was the sad outcome of the occupation of California by the Spanish.

The missions happened, they are part of California's history, now let's try and share the accurate story of them... there was good and bad, as with many things in life.

Originally Posted by David K

and that is too bad... because it then has them ignoring history. Because you don't like what happened doesn't mean you shouldn't know what happened, right?

To the Europeans, they converted near animal-like savages who wandered the desert, naked, sleeping in the open, eating lizards and bugs into farmers and craftsmen and saved their souls.

By turning the Indians into European style villagers, California would be an extension of Spain, block England or Russia from moving any closer south, and the missions would have served their purpose. A port for the Spanish Galleon was also on the list for the missions to achieve.

What nobody wanted to happen, was the death of thousands of Indians from diseases brought from Europe and that was the sad outcome of the occupation of California by the Spanish.

The missions happened, they are part of California's history, now let's try and share the accurate story of them... there was good and bad, as with many things in life.

There's a whole lot more to see in BAJA than the Missions, To me they stand as a monument to the Rape and Pillage of the local Inhabitants after the invaders took what they wanted they left the locals Sick and Destitute and moved on.to California.
There has ben more wrong done to mankind in the world in the name of GOD than any other cause.
If you have seen one you have seen them all

=David K;38294]

To the Europeans, they converted near animal-like savages who wandered the desert, naked, sleeping in the open, eating lizards and bugs into farmers and craftsmen and saved their souls.

Inquisition mentality. Pure bullshit as well. Europe won't even do that much for their homeless.

By turning the Indians into European style villagers,

Another serving of bullshit. The Indians were a labor force [as in forced]. To speculate they were to be converted to "European" is nonsense. I can just see them now, piling up their haystacks and winding down in a Pub after a day of toil.

California would be an extension of Spain

Some, even today, see Mexico as an extension of Spain, so I guess the prophecy held up since California is today an extension of Mexico.

A port for the Spanish Galleon was also on the list for the missions to achieve.

How many missions in the California chain were near the water?

The missions happened, they are part of California's history, now let's try and share the accurate story of them...

Good idea.

Originally Posted by DENNIS

Inquisition mentality. Pure bullshit as well. Europe won't even do that much for their homeless.



Another serving of bullshit. The Indians were a labor force [as in forced]. To speculate they were to be converted to "European" is nonsense. I can just see them now, piling up their haystacks and winding down in a Pub after a day of toil.









Some, even today, see Mexico as an extension of Spain, so I guess the prophecy held up since California is today an extension of Mexico.



How many missions in the California chain were near the water?






Good idea.

Gee Dennis, I didn't build the missions... I am just interested in knowing about them. They were here to save souls (in the minds of the Catholics) and to convert California to modern ways (in the minds of the Spanish government) so the land could be a new Spanish colony. Like it or not, that was the way it was. That men built these missions in a place like Baja... as far from home as Mars is from the earth today (in travel time of the 1700's)... is amazing to me. It is history we can see today... and other than the painted caves, the oldest evidence of man involved in Baja... followed by the old mines... All something interesting to see and it brings visitors to Baja, which is good for the economy.

They (the Jesuits) found no good source of fresh water anywhere there was also a harbor, on the west coast of the peninsula. They doubled their search efforts at Magdalena Bay... and there is an interesting story of how they hoped an Indian they found would show them the water source he claimed existed... but he escaped into the night!

The missions (and the Camino Real) stayed in the mountains once it left Loreto, all the way to El Rosario, except for a side trail to Mulege, with its rare fresh water river. The closest the Camino Real comes to the coast (between Loreto and El Rosario) is near Gonzaga Bay where it approaches Mission Santa Maria from the south. Nowhere else is El Camino Real closer to the sea, or sea level.

Originally Posted by J.P.

There's a whole lot more to see in BAJA than the Missions,...

If you don't know I share that belief, then I invite you to my web site... David K's BAJA Adventures The history of Baja is just one of so many activities that I (and others) enjoy!

CAMPING
OFF ROADING DRIVING
OFF ROAD RACING
FISHING
SHELL COLLECTING
ROCK COLLECTING
PHOTOGRAPHY
SWIMMING
HIKING
BOTANY
EATING
RELAXING

to name a few!

Originally Posted by David K

If you don't know I share that belief, then I invite you to my web site... David K's BAJA Adventures The history of Baja is just one of so many activities that I (and others) enjoy!

CAMPING
OFF ROADING DRIVING
OFF ROAD RACING
FISHING
SHELL COLLECTING
ROCK COLLECTING
PHOTOGRAPHY
SWIMMING
HIKING
BOTANY
EATING
RELAXING

to name a few!

I have lived on or near the Mexican Border Most of my life I troll this and other sites and if I see something that interest me I comment on it I have traveled Extensively all my life and never relied on nothing more than a basic road map somehow all these new toys take all the adventure out of it for me.
To each his own . I Prefer to learn about history from Qualified Historians. I was educated in the Texas School System before the far right took it over and re wrote the history books to suit themselves and that is much of what I see here.

Originally Posted by J.P.

I was educated in the Texas School System before the far right took it over and re wrote the history books to suit themselves and that is much of what I see here.

I guess if you keep going right, pretty soon you're going left. Maybe that's what happened here.

Originally Posted by DENNIS

I guess if you keep going right, pretty soon you're going left. Maybe that's what happened here.

YUP that's pretty much how it goes.

Thanks, DavidK - this is great. I've always aspired to visit each of the California missions, and now you've made my list longer and even more interesting.

I'm still working on putting together a California history-through-literature class, but had to postpone it until next year, as an unexpected extra job came up that displaced the classes I had planned. I confess I haven't had time to read the book you yet, but hope to do so over Thanksgiving break, and possibly incorporate it into the curriculum.

As an aside, I don't understand the emotional negative responses some people have toward posts like this. A person posts information, then gets slammed for it not being of interest to somebody (who, nonetheless, took the time to read it and express that it's not interesting). Why not just scroll past?

Originally Posted by DebMer

Thanks, DavidK - this is great. I've always aspired to visit each of the California missions, and now you've made my list longer and even more interesting.

I'm still working on putting together a California history-through-literature class, but had to postpone it until next year, as an unexpected extra job came up that displaced the classes I had planned. I confess I haven't had time to read the book you yet, but hope to do so over Thanksgiving break, and possibly incorporate it into the curriculum.

As an aside, I don't understand the emotional negative responses some people have toward posts like this. A person posts information, then gets slammed for it not being of interest to somebody (who, nonetheless, took the time to read it and express that it's not interesting). Why not just scroll past?

Thank you DebMar for the reply and your observation of what sometimes happens on Internet forums. Do you have a copy of the book already? It is for sale at a few of the mission gift shops (San Luis Rey, San Gabriel, San Fernando) and Discover Baja Travel Club in San Diego. In Baja, it is available in Tecate (CAREM Museum), El Rosario (Baja Cactus Motel), and San Jose del Cabo (BajaBooksAndMaps.com)... and a few other outlets in Baja CA Sur. Otherwise, we mail out books ordered off the book's web site, no postage charged to U.S. and Canada.

[QUOTE=J.P.;38311. I Prefer to learn about history from Qualified Historians..[/QUOTE]


Me too..., but we felt there should be an inexpensive, easy to use guide that condenses all those scholarly works into something that fits into a glovebox, so the casual travel to California and Baja California's missions has the facts at hand.

No other book (or guide) lists all 48 missions with equal status, in the order they were founded. Typically books only include details on the missions that happen to be on one side of a line, that was drawn many years later! It is spiral bound so the book stays on a page easily, but perfect binding is also available and a Spanish edition is being finalized.

Here is a couple of example pages, then the covers... note the missions are identified by the number which is their position of founding in the 48...









Close up of #48:

Originally Posted by DebMer

As an aside, I don't understand the emotional negative responses some people have toward posts like this. A person posts information, then gets slammed for it not being of interest to somebody (who, nonetheless, took the time to read it and express that it's not interesting). Why not just scroll past?

That's kinda like limiting the topic to one opinion, isn't it? That's what email is for. When you go public, the public is invited to join in.

Originally Posted by DENNIS

That's kinda like limiting the topic to one opinion, isn't it? That's what email is for. When you go public, the public is invited to join in.

Sure, and I think discussion, a variety of viewpoints and civilized debate are wonderful. I just don't understand the urge to post on a topic only to say that the topic is not worth discussing, as was done a couple of times on this thread. When I come across a post that doesn't interest me - say one on where to have body work done on a boat - I scroll on by. No need to criticize the OP for bringing up a topic that doesn't have relevance to my life.

Originally Posted by DebMer

I just don't understand the urge to post on a topic only to say that the topic is not worth discussing, as was done a couple of times on this thread. - I scroll on by.

Good. You know how to avoid the discomfort of varied opinions. Follow your own advice.

Quite often there are many interpretations of historical events. Big events, such as the Russian Revolution, often have three or four well thought out, logical debatable schools of thought that vie with each other for popularity/acclaim.

For example, in one of my college history classes the prof presented four variations of the US Latin America policy since 1812. Each was logical and well thought out and at some point, was accepted by the leading historians of the day. He left it up to the student to decide which one is/was the correct interpretation. You can apply the same methodology to just about any historical event; Mexican Revolution, Cuban Revolution, Cold War or even the settling of Baja by the Spanish.

Both DavidK and Dennis have both presented compelling and competing interpretations of the history of the Spanish in Baja/Baja Spanish Missions. The historical debate will not be decided here as both arguments are logical and grounded in historical facts. Perhaps they are both correct simultaneously?

Why not let the reader decide which narrative to believe?