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09/04/11 – Drug traffickers and members of criminal organizations can now be prosecuted as terrorists in Mexico, reported the Associated Press (AP). Following the deadly attack by the Zetas on the casino in Monterrey on August 25 that left over 50 people dead, President Felipe Calderón publicly labeled criminal organizations as “terrorists” for the first time. His statement defied past governments who have long rejected the term claiming that such criminal groups have no political aspirations. ”It is evident that we are not facing common delinquents” said Calderón. A few days later on August 30, a judge prosecuted two individuals for terrorism and sabotage after they used Twitter to threaten to bomb an elementary school in the state of Veracruz, causing alarm among parents and citizens.

Mexico’s deeming of such criminal activity as terrorism has brought the debate over how the United States and Mexico define the term back into discussion. According to the Associated Press, Mexican law considers any act that may cause fear or produce terror with the use of explosives, fire guns, or toxic chemicals as terrorism, wherein U.S. law includes the intent to influence the government or the public. In defense of the latter definition, Arturo Sarukhan, Mexico’s ambassador to the United States, continues to argue that “criminal organizations in Mexico have no political or ideological agenda, but rather only to protect their illicit businesses.”

Additionally, no connection has been found between drug trafficking organizations in Mexico and members of Al Qaeda or other international terrorist groups. However, since 2007 the AP has documented at least 29 court cases in Mexico where the defendants were charged with terrorism. Those found guilty of terrorism or cyberterrorism in Mexico can face up to 30 years in prison.

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Why not... nothing else seems to work...

"Those found guilty of terrorism or cyberterrorism in Mexico can face up to 30 years in prison."

Why not life without possibility of parole? Personally, I think this change is moving in the right direction, but I fear it might be too little, too late. It might also be past due for Mexico to rethink the death penalty.

Ahh. But given that the vast majority of the industrialized free world has outlawed the death penalty, is that not a step backward?

Throughout nations, there are various intrepretations of juris prudence. So, it has always been interesting to me that in the US, where the system considers innocence prior to conviction, how is it that we continue to wallow in executions?

Simple fact is that the government's role is not to gain retribution for victims. It's to disallow the perpetrators from engaging in the same behavior again.

Never have been able to understand why folks don't see that when someone is executed for a crime, since it was carried out by the state, and you and I are the state, you and I have committed murder, mostly at the behest of victims.

It is somewhat interseting to note that in the recent times, given the budget constraints on the states, there has been a finacial consideration made with respect to eliminating the death penalty.

Hey. Whatever it takes.

How about the simple fact that if they are executed, they won't be able to hurt anyone again?

There are many in Mexico that wish the death penalty was an option...

about the adoption of a "death penalty" .... think it is in FULL operation by some at this time... just saying.....

Originally Posted by Bajahowodd

Never have been able to understand why folks don't see that when someone is executed for a crime, since it was carried out by the state, and you and I are the state, you and I have committed murder, mostly at the behest of victims.

.

It's called law, It defines a difference between punishment and murder. Studying that might help you understand.

I'm still trying to get a grasp on a "civilized" and "educated" society killing its unborn yet advocating that those who commit multiple or heinous murders should live.

Whats the use of a death penality if they store them on death row and never execute.

Originally Posted by Bajahowodd

Never have been able to understand why folks don't see that when someone is executed for a crime, since it was carried out by the state, and you and I are the state, you and I have committed murder, mostly at the behest of victims.

While I am a big believer that the death penalty should be used for only extreme cases (narco/ cartel assassins for example), I also believe to remove that option from the table creates an environment like we now find in Mexico.

I understand your sentiment but the logic is flawed.

Following that line of thinking then aren't we all guilty of kidnapping every time we arrest somebody and lock them up?

Hmmmmmmm....according to my amiga, Mexico DOES have a death penalty on the books. But it's a VERY OLD law, limited to crimes against the country (she likened it to treason) & it hasn't been implemented since the era of the Revolucion de 1910. Method was firing squad. She also said that Mexico DOES have "Cadena Perpetua"....life in prison without parole; she can only recall once during her lifetime (but she's only 35 years old!) that anyone was sentenced....something about a kidnapper who cut off the ears of his victims....he was sentenced to 110 years.

My philosophy on this topic parallels Dusty & BajaGringo's. More to the point, I sincerely feel that there are some people who perpetuate crimes against humanity, who fall way outside the scope of any possibility of rehabilitation & the world would be a better place without their continued existence.

I don't follow the warped logic that I & others have in essence committed murder when the death sentence is implemented, rather....IMO....I feel that justice has been served for the sake of humanity. There is a small section of society who makes a conscious choice to live by socially unacceptable practices against humanity....that's the group I was referring to in my original post & I stand by my original comments....yes, I'll sleep just fine!

I see I'm getting no love here. But, I don't think my logic is flawed, given that I have always been against the death penalty, because regardless of how heinous a crime may be, man does not have the right to kill another man. Interestingly, the Roman Catholic Church as long been consistent with the idea that murder is a sin and whether it be abortion or capital execution, they should not be allowed.

That said, there are sources that will argue that for many nasty criminals, life in prison without the possibility of parole is actually harsher punishment thatn execution. And there are also many countries that disallow that particular sentence.

Mexico, in fact, only recently adopted Life without parole. Both that sentence and capital punishment were for many years a major impediment in cases where the US sought to extradite criminals caught in Mexico.

So, grab some popcorn and check out the current list as compiled by Amnesty International.

Just note some of the company we keep. And maybe Texas ought to seceed.

The Death Penalty Worldwide Infoplease.com

Originally Posted by Bajahowodd

Interestingly, the Roman Catholic Church as long been consistent with the idea that murder is a sin and whether it be abortion or capital execution, they should not be allowed.

That is interesting, considering their role in a few rather bloody events historically...

1. This thread is about MEXICO, not the "vast majority of the industrialized free world", nor any country outside of Mexico. Please stay on topic.
   
   
2. You can read whatever articles, statistics, religious tracts you want to influence, change or shore up your position....you can side with the Roman Catholic Church if you so desire. MY thoughts, feelings & conclusions are mine alone (regardless of how many others may share them), based on my own internal sense of right & wrong, in conjunction with a well-exercised conscience & nothing I read on this particular topic is going to change MY position. Certainly not heavy-handed threats of being labeled a sinner, by the Roman Catholic Church, or anyone else for that matter....my "higher authority" is my own conscience.
   
   Wessongroup....true, unfortunately current use of the death penalty is in the hands of those it should be implemented against!

Originally Posted by longlegsinlapaz

1. This thread is about MEXICO, not the "vast majority of the industrialized free world", nor any country outside of Mexico. Please stay on topic.
   
   
2. You can read whatever articles, statistics, religious tracts you want to influence, change or shore up your position....you can side with the Roman Catholic Church if you so desire. MY thoughts, feelings & conclusions are mine alone (regardless of how many others may share them), based on my own internal sense of right & wrong, in conjunction with a well-exercised conscience & nothing I read on this particular topic is going to change MY position. Certainly not heavy-handed threats of being labeled a sinner, by the Roman Catholic Church, or anyone else for that matter....my "higher authority" is my own conscience.
   
   Wessongroup....true, unfortunately current use of the death penalty is in the hands of those it should be implemented against!

First off, Mexico does not exist in a vacuum. And as I previously noted, Mexico's reticense to allow extradition of killers and kidnappers to the US seems to me to be relevent.

As for your personal beliefs, I didn't think that I was attacking them. As I also noted, I am a lifelong anti-death penalty guy.

As far as I believe, this forum is for the meaningful exchange of ideas. That's what I try to do.

That said, as far as the death penalty is concerned, no one has ever been able to show that the death penalty has any preventative effect on crime. Most murders, for example, are crimes of passion. Those bastards didn't take a moment to ponder the death penalty. And as I mentioned, for many, life in prison without parole is a far harsher sentence tha execution.

As for Ron's comment, of course historically the Catholic Church was involved in some major nasty stuff. But, I was totally referring to today and the recent past. Like after the crusades.

Actually I referenced the Catholic Church merely because in present day, they represent, in my opinion, a consistency that is rarely seen elsewhere.

Consider that the overwhelming majority of anti-abortion folks support the death penalty. Does no one see a disconnect there?

Finally, Ms. La Paz Legs, I absolutely welcome a private conversation, should you be interested. I have no ax to grind with you. Your move.

"Wessongroup....true, unfortunately current use of the death penalty is in the hands of those it should be implemented against!"

Exactly....

Originally Posted by Bajahowodd

That said, as far as the death penalty is concerned, no one has ever been able to show that the death penalty has any preventative effect on crime. Most murders, for example, are crimes of passion. Those bastards didn't take a moment to ponder the death penalty. And as I mentioned, for many, life in prison without parole is a far harsher sentence tha execution.

That's a hard one to truly measure accurately as who knows how many murders have been avoided by ending the lives of those executed? Even those with life sentences without the possibility of parole have continued to commit murders in prison against guards and other inmates. How many murders do many of these cartel bosses "order" from within prison via criminal organizations they still control?

As far as crimes of passion I agree but murders by the cartels are hardly that. They are cold blooded, calculated and ruthless acts carried out to control, intimidate and seek vengeance.

Originally Posted by Bajahowodd

Consider that the overwhelming majority of anti-abortion folks support the death penalty. Does no one see a disconnect there?

And vice versa - a much bigger moral dilemma IMHO...

B.G., You probably know way better than I but, I'd tone down the narco/cartel rhetoric. Those guys may read this thread. No joke. Stay safe.

Originally Posted by Bajahowodd

I see I'm getting no love here. But, I don't think my logic is flawed, given that I have always been against the death penalty, because regardless of how heinous a crime may be, man does not have the right to kill another man.

............Texas ought to seceed.
.
The Death Penalty Worldwide Infoplease.com

Think again, it's flawed. And there's that matter of the Constitution;
maybe if you considered secession, you would be more ideologically comfortable.

When a country, any country, finds itself in a situation where it cannot secure the rights and liberty of its citizens, I wonder how long the citizens will tolerate laws that prohibit them the measures (arms) in order that they may secure their natural rights for themselves.

Mexico should also think about arming the citizens to give the cartels a little competition.

The citizens who live in the cities and the towns know who the cartel members are......maybe a little vigilante justice is in order